Insurance - agreed value for J Spec

[Mustdriveslower]

Hi Everyone,

Further to the posts under newbie section I'd like to open a couple of threads to gain insight and knowledge into why you all want agreed value cover on J Spec models, so much. Why is it such a big "want"? I need to know.

As I am sure you are aware the is pretty much a "no no" in Insurance circles mainly because when J Spec cars started coming into the country there were a lot of pitfalls as the components and build quality were not as good as good ole blighties. Tales of thinner glass, inferior paint and body panels that were unique to the home market cars gave insurance companies the heebies.

Very soon a J Spec car was loaded on the premium and cover was pulled in. Values were estimated to be 30% less than UK spec cars. Horror stories abound of parts taking 6 months to be sourced in japan, so we know the history of why J spec could not get agreed value. And it still sticks.

But, Supras I am told are not Estima/Previas etc and their differences are small. Also why if you have completely rebuilt a J Spec isn't it every bit as good if not better that a UK car? Good point I say and have has good results negotiating this point with the insurer we use for our club scheme.

What I need from you guys is some plus's and minus's for and against so I have knowledge to make my mind up as to whether we do offer AV for J spec. I want to do it, so guys (and gals) give me cogent reasons why I should. I can't open the door and simply say yes, I need reasons before doing so.

Maybe they simply are not the vast differences with supras (so give me chapter and verse), maybe it should be only those that have been rebuilt?

Let's have a free for all, hash things out. If you can help me to have the right underwriting stance on this one you can have it. After all this is YOUR scheme and here I am your man in charge. talk to me!

Agreed value for J Spec. Over to you all for discussion.

[Angry Koala]

My thoughts on the matter (for what they are worth) are:

I understand why there was originally an issue with Jap Imports and insurance companies. Certainly in terms of bikes (which I think I'm right in saying were the first "grey imports" to come in in large numbers). Parts were different, some parts were only available in Japan or the US and shipping costs were high, different specs meant that UK main dealers had no experience of, or in some cases knowledge of, a car or bike at all and therefore the cost to insurers on the event of a claim was higher than for a domestic market machine and this had to be passed on to the customer. As a result all imports have tended to have a lower residual value than UK cars/bikes as they were more expensive to fix and more expensive to insure.

What I don't understand is how this affects an agreed value for a specific vehicle. In very simple terms I would expect to pay more of a premium to insure a sum of £10000 than I would to insure a sum of £5000. Therefore if I state that my car is worth £10000 to me, give me a premium based on insuring £10000 worth of car, rather than giving me a premium based on a nominal book value of £5000.

I know the above is very simplistic and in reality it would cause issues with cost of damage vs value of vehicle when working out whether a car was economical to repair or a total loss (ie with a 60% of value cut-off you would have to have caused £6000's worth of damage vs only £3000's worth on a £5000 car).

The issue at the moment (and certainly the issue that brought this to a head for me) was that in the current market I could sell my car for between £6000 and £6500 to a fellow club member or newbie who was looking for a car that had been owned by a club member and which other club members could, to the best of their knowledge, state that yes it's a clean example in good condition and more importantly some of the history of the car is known (we know the guy has spent money on it, he's sought correct advice rather than bodging jobs, etc, etc.) I certainly couldn't replace it like for like for less than that amount. However, book value (Glass's guide etc) has the car at nearly half this amount and therefore without an agreed value policy I am basically paying to insure half a car as I would only be paid half the money I would need to replace like for like.

In terms of J-Spec vs UK spec Supras, obviously there is a major difference in SZ (normally aspirated) vs UK spec (twin turbo) and there are differences between the J-Spec TT's (RZ and GZ) vs UK Spec. But I'm still in the dark as to why you can get agreed value on UK spec and not J spec as surely the agreed value for a J-Spec would simply be the cost of replacing a J-spec car with another J-spec car. I don't think anyone expects you to agree a value based on a UK car for a J spec. Whereas mine (as above) is £6000-£6500, the equivalent UK spec car (ie same mileage, same condition, same mods) would cost me around £8000. I accept this but can't see how this means no agreed values for J-spec. Just agree a value (which can be confirmed by senior club members if required) for the specific car, not for what it would cost if it was something different.

Going back to the original issue with imports (the cost of sourcing and replacing parts) as far as I'm aware the majority of J-spec parts are as readily available as the UK parts (ie if you can't get something from Toyota any more for J-spec, you can't get it for UK spec either eg. OEM skirts and spats) and in a majority of cases standard UK items such as active spoilers, headlight washers, etc would actually mean the car was more costly to repair than J-spec rather than the other way round. Panels etc are interchangeable (bonnet scoop would increase the price of a UK bonnet) and paint codes (unless resprayed Lamborghini Tangerine Dream Orange number 7 with a candy fleck and a carbon bonnet or some such) are the same so repairing bodywork damage should be an identical cost.

Apologies if this is a bit rambling and I'm sure I'll be picked up on more than one point as being incorrect or ambiguous (let the Koala beating begin!!) but as no-one else had started the ball rolling and I'd been the one who had a strop in the first place, I thought I'd have my 2 pence worth

[Mustdriveslower]

Spot bloomin on!

Let me say right now at the beginning of our relationship on the forum my MSOC chums "There is NO common sense with Insurance"! So we will often on these pages collectively scratch our head as to the perverse logic of Insurance companies!

Angry Koala, your points are sound. Value is value, but the problem is where to a non knowledgeable insurance claims processing system they can not tell the J Spec so are therefore disadvantaged by the unscrupulous who manoeuvre to advantage themselves. Have a cheaper J Spec make a claim for a UK value and get away with it. The industry has moved on and I don't think this fear would be realised nowadays but as an industry the negative stands and therefore no AV for J Specs. Until now I hasten to add......

It is often easier for the sausage machine insurers to pass blanket answers to insurance problems; "no AV for J Spec" as they may get seen off a few times than to address the problem by selectively filtering risks as we do.

Thank you Angry Koala for being the first to respond. I am intrigued by future posts to come. But on your comments I can not see as you recognise the reality of true AV there would be a problem.

Our AV is the "fair market value between individuals (not retail) with the annual mileage for the current period of insurance added" i.e. the value in a year, or the lowest value in the contract term. Often this doesn’t change that much but it is this way as we insure year old cars that are in short supply and they will go down in that first year or so and often by 5 or 6 thousand. Also for J Spec cars we have a parts endorsement that reads that if the part is unavailable we will pay for the equivalent UK part and send you on your way with our kind wishes. You can often source parts cheaper then an insurer and be happier with the work done. Remember for insurers it is purely a financial arrangement they don’t love their cars like we do. Daft bunch.

We have had a lot of cases where they were panicking on 6 month delivery ETA's and simply paid the policyholder and armed with the money the car has been back on the road the following weekend as the owner knows specialist dealers is prepared to buy used etc. It works well I think.

Anyway I digress. Let's get some more posts so I can gauge the attitude to values etc.

[Martin F]

Originally Posted by Angry Koala

Going back to the original issue with imports (the cost of sourcing and replacing parts) as far as I'm aware the majority of J-spec parts are as readily available as the UK parts (ie if you can't get something from Toyota any more for J-spec, you can't get it for UK spec either eg. OEM skirts and spats) and in a majority of cases standard UK items such as active spoilers, headlight washers, etc would actually mean the car was more costly to repair than J-spec rather than the other way round. Panels etc are interchangeable (bonnet scoop would increase the price of a UK bonnet) and paint codes (unless resprayed Lamborghini Tangerine Dream Orange number 7 with a candy fleck and a carbon bonnet or some such) are the same so repairing bodywork damage should be an identical cost.

I would like to reply to this thread in the detail it deserves when I get more time. However for now, just to pick up on the above point, IMO a UK spec car is actually more expensive to repair than the equivalent J-Spec car due to the higher standard equipment level. For example a high percentage of accidents result in damage to the front of a car, well on a UK spec you will always have:
Active spoiler (fitted to some J-specs)
Headlight washers (never fitted to J-specs)
Glass Headlights (more expensive than J-spec items)
Bonnet scoop (never fitted to J-specs)

There are probably other items as well, but i'm sure you get the idea.

The only anomaly i'd say are facelifted J-spec cars who have slightly different bumpers wings and headlights and I honestly do not know how the value and availability of those items compare to non-facelifted\UK parts.

In essence repair of a J-Spec car vs. a UK spec car should not be an issue.

[Mustdriveslower]

ANNOUNCEMENT
I have looked into some of the points you have all raised (including wading through a lot of your old historic posts under insurance etc) and I agree with them, so, if you guys can give me some cold hard facts (that I can put in a nice little underwriting file otherwise known as CYA paperwork - you know "Cover your ar**" paperwork should it all go pear shaped and i need to show some due diligence in my decision) to back up our conversations here on the forum I will do AV on your J-Specs as long as the club can help give honest and realistic AV valuation help until I think I am up to the job (once I have a few under my belt, and think I can walk unaided).
Anyone out there wanting an AV quote on their J-Spec give us a call and when the young ladies at my office say "sorry can't do AV on an grey" say "oh yes you can go and speak to Jason" (Hopefully they won't as I will try to remember to tell them tomorrow but as I am off to the pub tonight I might well forget....)
Let's see if the first few quotes look like runners or not.
Jason

[Angry Koala]

First up I have to say I'm a little disappointed that only Martin and myself have added to the thread for you Jason.

I know that there are a large proportion of UK cars in this owners club but I would have thought that I wasn't the only J-Spec owner to want an agreed value on my car due to the big difference between book value and real world value of our cars - or would all the J-Spec TT owners on here be fine with only receiving £3000-£3500 for their pride and joy if it got written off?

Anyway, back to your request - what cold, hard facts are you after Jason? I don't profess to know everything about Supras but the wealth of knowledge on here will, I'm sure, be able to give you as comprehensive a list as you'd like regarding UK vs J Spec cars.

[Mustdriveslower]

There have been some posts about comparing parts prices and a list of differing features for J- spec and UK cars.

If I can have paper based proof that the differences are small and therefore the potential costs of a claim are not that different then I'd be happy to go ahead.

Over to you guys,

Jason

[Angry Koala]

Martin/Barney/Flynn/Dunk,

Would Steve Manley (or a MR T dealer that the club has a longstanding relationship with) be willing to give us a list of parts prices (particularly replacement panels, bumpers, spoilers, etc that would be the first things replaced or repaired in an accident) and confirm in writing which J-Spec parts (pre-facelift in terms of bumpers) are identical to UK spec?

I know we have a list of parts numbers on another thread already which should also show Jason that many are interchangeable.

Where like for like modifications are covered do you need any proof of compatability Jason (ie Barney's OZ alloys on his UK Spec would fit my J Spec and my 5 spokes would fit his) or are these a seperate issue entirely?

Also what sort of paperwork do you need for J-spec cars with UK spec upgrades (factory fit at point of manufacture or retro fitted). Eg. GZ models (like mine) came with full leather interior, active spoiler and heated mirrors as standard and an upgrade to the larger UK brakes was an option in Japan. J-spec cars (as Martin said) came without heated seats, headlight washers and bonnet scoop but as we both mentioned this should actually mean a reduction in the cost of repairing a Jap Supra or replacing parts compared to a UK car.

[Mustdriveslower]

AK,
All I nned is a list of comparable parts and prices that shows UK JSPEC prices. Best bits are as you say is panels, bumpers, spoilers, etc that would be the first things replaced in an accident and also to confirm in writing which J-Spec parts are identical to UK.

As for compatibility I have no problem here, they either are or are not compatible! When it comes to a claim it isn't a big problem so don't worry too much about this aspect.

Lastly for those vehicles with UK spec upgrades well we simply need to know what's been done to the car. If you look at this resource http://www.lwib.co.uk/downloads.asp
page on our web site you can download the agreed value sheet and see that it is pretty common sensical ish. (you can see from my command of the English language that my parents spent a lot on my education at that borstal...).

Jason

[UltraFlynn]

AK: If we can supply Steve Manley with a list of part numbers for both UK and J-Spec from the EPC I'm certain he would be happy to supply prices (with his usual discount).

I'm currently insured through Livingstones and when my renewal comes up again I shall be asking for an agreed valuation.