Club car insurance 15% off

[Martin F]

Good to hear.

[V]

Damn right! Leaves me a few hundered to spend on somehting else now as I’d resigned to fact I was going to spend a few hundred quid more just to keep the thing on the road.

Hmmm now what shall I buy.........

[Angry Koala]

I have spoken to Livingstones about insurance for the coming year. Spoke to a lady called Claire, who was very helpful and is calling me back with quotes on Wednesday.

Unfortunately that's where the good news stops.

The MSOC discount, it appears, doesn't actually exist as they will give the discount to any car club member (member of the RAC? here have a discount).

Even worse (and the reason that Livingstones have almost certainly lost any chance of having my money) they have told me that they WILL NOT DO AGREED VALUE ON ANY JAP IMPORT!!!

Given that they don't appear to be able to compete with the run of the mill insurance companies on price (they've already said they don't think they get close to my other quotes) AND that they can now only offer their one redeeming feature (agreed value) to maybe 5% of club members, can they really continue to be the club insurers?

Your thoughts and any advice on insurance companies not to give my hard-earned to would be welcomed! I have had quotes of around £400 from Admiral, Elephant and Endsleigh (who also said they would cover my wheels like for like and if the same were no longer available would allow me to choose a set of the same design from any manufacturer or the cash equivalent of those if they were unavailable!!)

[Martin F]

Originally Posted by Angry Koala

The MSOC discount, it appears, doesn't actually exist as they will give the discount to any car club member (member of the RAC? here have a discount).

The insurance scheme they offer to MSOC members is their cherished car scheme. Like a lot of specialised insurers Livingstones work with other car clubs, so this offer is not specific to MSOC. Off the top of my head I know they work with one of the Audi clubs and one of the Nissan clubs.

Originally Posted by Angry Koala

Even worse (and the reason that Livingstones have almost certainly lost any chance of having my money) they have told me that they WILL NOT DO AGREED VALUE ON ANY JAP IMPORT!!!

This is not news and one of the areas that unfortunately we as a club need to work harder with them to try and pursue. Unfortunately the underwriters believe that the imported MKIV Supra is more costly to repair than a UK version, and as we know that is not true. If somebody wants to take this up in a constructive manner with Livingstones, listing prices of Jap vs. UK parts, labour differences (ie. £0) then please speak to me and i'll pass on the relevant contact details. This has always been a subject of conversation when I speak to Livingstons, but on my part I have not had the time to obtain all the prices, draft a relevant document and submit it for consideration.

Originally Posted by Angry Koala

Given that they don't appear to be able to compete with the run of the mill insurance companies on price (they've already said they don't think they get close to my other quotes) AND that they can now only offer their one redeeming feature (agreed value) to maybe 5% of club members, can they really continue to be the club insurers?

Whoooa, hold on a minute who are you to call into question whether the club insurers should remain based purely on your own experience? Isn't that a little selfish?

Have you actually read through this thread to see the number of positive responses vs. negative ones?

You really think their only redeeming feature is their ability to offer agreed value? How about their willingness to take an interest in the detail of the cars they are insuring, ability to offer annual track insurance at a very competitive rate, ability to offer agreed value insurance to other club members, etc, etc.

Originally Posted by Angry Koala

Your thoughts and any advice on insurance companies not to give my hard-earned to would be welcomed! I have had quotes of around £400 from Admiral, Elephant and Endsleigh (who also said they would cover my wheels like for like and if the same were no longer available would allow me to choose a set of the same design from any manufacturer or the cash equivalent of those if they were unavailable!!)

If you are comparing the likes of Admiral, Elephant and Endsleigh to Livingstones, then as far as i'm concerned you still need to do more research. I'm pretty sure you have read my experience of Admiral as i'm sure we have discussed insurance before, and from what I read around various forums they haven't changed. It's probably easy for them to agree to replace a set of wheels new for old (getting it in writing may be another matter) when they know that if you ever make a claim they will just deduct it from the Glasses guide value of your car.

[Angry Koala]

Originally Posted by Martin F

The insurance scheme they offer to MSOC members is their cherished car scheme. Like a lot of specialised insurers Livingstones work with other car clubs, so this offer is not specific to MSOC. Off the top of my head I know they work with one of the Audi clubs and one of the Nissan clubs.

My apologies - I had read the thread to be a 15% discount for club members on their normal cherished car scheme, rather than it being a discounted scheme which had been made available to MSOC.

Originally Posted by Martin F

This is not news and one of the areas that unfortunately we as a club need to work harder with them to try and pursue. Unfortunately the underwriters believe that the imported MKIV Supra is more costly to repair than a UK version, and as we know that is not true. If somebody wants to take this up in a constructive manner with Livingstones, listing prices of Jap vs. UK parts, labour differences (ie. £0) then please speak to me and i'll pass on the relevant contact details. This has always been a subject of conversation when I speak to Livingstons, but on my part I have not had the time to obtain all the prices, draft a relevant document and submit it for consideration.

I've PM'd you (and spoken to you in person) on a few occasions in the 12 months I've been on here Martin offering any assistance I can give in the running of the club as I know how much work you do with it. I'm happy to put the time and effort into this if people feel that it will be a positive thing which will help a number of club members.

Originally Posted by Martin F

Whoooa, hold on a minute who are you to call into question whether the club insurers should remain based purely on your own experience? Isn't that a little selfish?

No more than keeping them on the basis they are good for the UK spec owners only. I'm sure as a UK spec owner they are great for you mate, but I could then ask the "isn't that a little selfish" question of you, as this would be based on your own experience.... I was asking this as an open question up for debate as I thought that was the purpose of an open forum.

Originally Posted by Martin F

Have you actually read through this thread to see the number of positive responses vs. negative ones?

Yes I have and it is by no means a positive landslide.... also the majority of feedback is from over 2 years ago. Maybe the company has changed in the last 24 months and things are not as they used to be. The only recent feedback is from V who has apparently got an agreed value on a J-Spec which they say they don't do....

Originally Posted by Martin F

You really think their only redeeming feature is their ability to offer agreed value? How about their willingness to take an interest in the detail of the cars they are insuring, ability to offer annual track insurance at a very competitive rate, ability to offer agreed value insurance to other club members, etc, etc.

It's up to an owner to give full details unless they suddenly want to find themselves with void insurance so I don't feel they took any more interest in the details of the car than any other company have so far. Yes Claire was helpful but she wasn't really interested in whether my car was a Supra, Skyline, Mustang, MG, etc, just on whether it was standard or modified. I think that the track day insurance is a great deal, but I've only ever spoken to one member of this club who even wanted to take their car anywhere near a track so again it is another fantastic deal for a small minority of members.

Originally Posted by Martin F

If you are comparing the likes of Admiral, Elephant and Endsleigh to Livingstones, then as far as i'm concerned you still need to do more research. I'm pretty sure you have read my experience of Admiral as i'm sure we have discussed insurance before, and from what I read around various forums they haven't changed. It's probably easy for them to agree to replace a set of wheels new for old (getting it in writing may be another matter) when they know that if you ever make a claim they will just deduct it from the Glasses guide value of your car.

I don't actually recall having heard of your problems with Admiral but I'll do a search on it now (hence my asking for advice on companies to avoid!). It was actually only Endsleigh who agreed to cover the alloys like for like and they have agreed to put this in writing to me before deciding whether or not to take up their cover (I have previously used Endsleigh on other cars and never had a problem with them - maybe that experience may be different had I had to claim....). I think (not 100%, but it comes across this way) that you are suggesting in the last sentence that these 3 insurance companies would simply take the Glasses guide price for the car and give me that money minus the excess in the event of a total loss claim, but if I can't get agreed value with Livingstones they're only going to do exactly the same.....

I take it my post caused some sort of personal offence to you Martin given the tone of response and I do sincerely apologise if this is the case. I was merely openly questioning the value brought to the club by the insurers and asking for advice on companies to potentially avoid.

[Martin F]

Originally Posted by Angry Koala

I've PM'd you (and spoken to you in person) on a few occasions in the 12 months I've been on here Martin offering any assistance I can give in the running of the club as I know how much work you do with it. I'm happy to put the time and effort into this if people feel that it will be a positive thing which will help a number of club members.

And as I said to you at the time all offers of assistance are greatfully received, and we may well call on you in the future to assist. So how about in this case rather than bitching and moaning coming up with an insurers or brokers who provide a better alternative to Livingstones for club members?

Originally Posted by Angry Koala

No more than keeping them on the basis they are good for the UK spec owners only. I'm sure as a UK spec owner they are great for you mate, but I could then ask the "isn't that a little selfish" question of you, as this would be based on your own experience.... I was asking this as an open question up for debate as I thought that was the purpose of an open forum.

Originally Posted by Angry Koala

I don't actually recall having heard of your problems with Admiral but I'll do a search on it now (hence my asking for advice on companies to avoid!).

I'm sorry Matt, but the above two quotes indicate to me that you haven't read through this thread before posting your thoughts, as the're lots of happy J-Spec owners in this thread as well. Albeit a couple of years back, but who are we to say whether they are or aren't still insured with Livingstones.

My Admiral experience is also alluded to many times; i'm kind of obsessive about it due to how they tried to shaft me.

Originally Posted by Angry Koala

Yes I have and it is by no means a positive landslide.... also the majority of feedback is from over 2 years ago. Maybe the company has changed in the last 24 months and things are not as they used to be. The only recent feedback is from V who has apparently got an agreed value on a J-Spec which they say they don't do....

Sorry I don't see the phrase 'agreed value' in V's post, could you highlight that for me?

I'm not aware of any 'major' policy changes with Livingstones over the last year or so, which corresponds with no major shift in the variation on feedback we get. Some people provide very positive feedback, and others provide shall we say lack lustre feedback as the quote from Livingstones is not competitive. Not trying to sound pompus here or anything, but i'm experienced enough to realise that no insurance company is going to be able to be competitive 100% of the time in all the individual circumstances that they get asked to quote for.

Originally Posted by Angry Koala

I don't actually recall having heard of your problems with Admiral but I'll do a search on it now (hence my asking for advice on companies to avoid!). It was actually only Endsleigh who agreed to cover the alloys like for like and they have agreed to put this in writing to me before deciding whether or not to take up their cover (I have previously used Endsleigh on other cars and never had a problem with them - maybe that experience may be different had I had to claim....). I think (not 100%, but it comes across this way) that you are suggesting in the last sentence that these 3 insurance companies would simply take the Glasses guide price for the car and give me that money minus the excess in the event of a total loss claim, but if I can't get agreed value with Livingstones they're only going to do exactly the same.....

Finally here is one of the major issues when comparing specialist insurers versus your everyday companies. Also one of the reasons why a lot of nieve people choose their insurance for their pride and joy purely based on the premium (i've been there and done it, and only now after my experience with Admiral look for more than just the premium details). People tend to not look past the premium, because they think they will never have to call on the services of their insurers. Believe me it can happen to anybody how ever good a driver you are, and when it does the last thing you want to be doing is arguing with your insurance company.

If you have an agreed value policy, then in the event of a total loss the amount insured is what the company will pay out (less excess, etc) as it has been previously agreed between yourselves and the company. End of story, no arguments.

In the event of a total loss if there is no agreed value then you are supposed to be offered the true market value of your car immediately before the accident. But as we know historically the insurance companies rely on their Glasses guide. If you disagree with this value then their may be some debate, but in my own case with Admiral it was nearly a 6 month fight with a lot of cost to myself and having to use the Financial Ombudsman to get the real value of my car.

If however you are using a specialist insurer then their knowledge and understanding that the car is cherished by the owner should help with the valuation of your car, if you wish to question their initial offer. Also (and I may be on stony ground here as thankfully it has never been tested) as Livingstones have a relationship with MSOC then I would expect them to take seriously any opinion or assessment the club may make of the valuation.

With respect to Endsleigh as an individual company I have no experience, with them or knowledge of how they perform when claims are made. So they may be perfectly reasonable and willing to discuss, however we all need to be aware that book prices are far off what our cars sell for.

Originally Posted by Angry Koala

I take it my post caused some sort of personal offence to you Martin given the tone of response and I do sincerely apologise if this is the case. I was merely openly questioning the value brought to the club by the insurers and asking for advice on companies to potentially avoid.

No personal offence as i'm a little too thick skinned for that, but I do get a bit pissed off when people shoot down what others have worked hard to achieve without either offering a better alternative or looking at the overal picture.

This club is very open and discussions are more than welcome, but likewise you have to expect me to be slightly defensive when people take pot shots at what myself and others have taken nearly 5 years to build up.

[Barney]

Regarding repair costs of UK vs J-Spec situation with Livingstones and there stance on the matter, I would be more than happy to take this up on behalf of the club, unfortunately with the prospect of a move in the pipeline, possible lack of phoneline/broadband which would follow the move I would be reluctant to take this on until I was fully sorted comunication-wise.

Later in the year shouldn't be an issue though, just let me know.

[Angry Koala]

Originally Posted by Martin F

Sorry I don't see the phrase 'agreed value' in V's post, could you highlight that for me?

Originally Posted by V

Obviously went with Livingstone inc Protected no claims, legal, £350 excess, all mods, value of car, limited to 7.5k miles on drive (I have a large drive ) 33yr old, over 5yrs NCB, no accidents or convictions – superb!

If that doesn't mean agreed value then why write it as any insurer will cover the value of car - just some will use Glass's value, some will check what cars are selling for (as AXA did when I unfortunately had to claim for my 205 GTI) and some will pay what they agreed on such a policy. Sorry if I have misread this statement, but unless it's agreed value it's a bit like listing the attributes of a cat and saying "not a dog".

Originally Posted by Martin F

If you have an agreed value policy, then in the event of a total loss the amount insured is what the company will pay out (less excess, etc) as it has been previously agreed between yourselves and the company. End of story, no arguments.

Agreed, there can be no argument to that statement.

Originally Posted by Martin F

In the event of a total loss if there is no agreed value then you are supposed to be offered the true market value of your car immediately before the accident. But as we know historically the insurance companies rely on their Glasses guide.

This is untrue in my own experience. When my Peugeot was written off (and whilst you may think it please don't insult me by suggesting that it's any different whether it be a Supra, a Peugeot 205 GTI, a Ferrari or anything else other than a run of the mill 1.4 - 1.8 family hatchback which is easily replaced for a similar car due to the sheer numbers available) the glasses guide figure was a paltry £600 which is what I was originally offered. I asked to speak to the valuer and pointed out that it was a members club car, with FSH, in way above average condition etc, etc and they agreed to check not only Autotrader, ebay, Exchange & Mart etc but also the owners club forums for prices to give an accurate value - 1 week later offer was £1500 which was more than I'd paid for the car.

Originally Posted by Martin F

If you disagree with this value then their may be some debate, but in my own case with Admiral it was nearly a 6 month fight with a lot of cost to myself and having to use the Financial Ombudsman to get the real value of my car.

Having not been in this situation I can only imagine the annoyance, stress and worry this must have caused and I genuinely feel sorry that you had to go through this.

Originally Posted by Martin F

Also (and I may be on stony ground here as thankfully it has never been tested) as Livingstones have a relationship with MSOC then I would expect them to take seriously any opinion or assessment the club may make of the valuation.

I honestly didn't get any hint that there was a relationship between Livingstones and MSOC any more than us being another owners club.

Originally Posted by Martin F

........however we all need to be aware that book prices are far off what our cars sell for.

I'm sorry mate, I get the feeling that there has always been a problem with what I paid for my car as it demonstrated perfectly the true market value vs the (still) hugely overinflated prices that people think their cars are worth.

Granted your own car, Barney's car, Dunk's and Kev's (all UK spec coincidentally) (and others before anyone else takes offence that I haven't mentioned their P&J) are exceptions to the rule as no-one could argue the fact that they are in showroom condition and have had thousands of pounds spent to keep them that way. However for the majority of the cars that are around there is this almost group self-denial (of Jap performance cars generally, not just within MSOC) of what the owner could actually get if they sold their car. Very few seem to accept that what they have is, at the end of the day, just a car....it's not a Ferrari GTO that is ever going to fetch millions at auction!

A prime example is the fact that there is a tt on .net at the moment for £3500.... it needs some work, yes, but the guy has priced it bang on. People start shouting about the price being too low etc in fear of what their own car is now worth because they'd like to think that they can still get what they paid for their car when they bought it 3, 4, 5 years ago.... it's not going to happen. The only way that a lot of people would get what they think their car is worth is if they have managed to get agreed value insurance using others optimistic ideas of what they want theirs to be worth as some sort of proof. Basically it's a good old boys club where if we all stick together everyone wins and if anyone steps out of line and suggests anything to the contrary they're blackballed and everyone pretends it never happened.....

Originally Posted by Martin F

No personal offence as i'm a little too thick skinned for that, but I do get a bit pissed off when people shoot down what others have worked hard to achieve without either offering a better alternative or looking at the overal picture. This club is very open and discussions are more than welcome, but likewise you have to expect me to be slightly defensive when people take pot shots at what myself and others have taken nearly 5 years to build up.

Lastly, I'm not trying to take potshots at you Martin, or Flynn, or Barney or anyone else who has put years of effort into the club. I have the utmost respect for everything you guys have done.

My car will be advertised at a realistic price just as soon as I have the bonnet chips and the alloys sorted and if anyone looks at it and thinks they could get more for it then please feel free to buy it from me and sell it straight on if you think you can make a profit and it won't just be taking up room on your drive for months.....

[Barney]

Originally Posted by Angry Koala

My car will be advertised at a realistic price just as soon as I have the bonnet chips and the alloys sorted and if anyone looks at it and thinks they could get more for it then please feel free to buy it from me and sell it straight on if you think you can make a profit and it won't just be taking up room on your drive for months.....

Slightly out of context.................Reading the above it sounds like you are planning on selling your Supra Matt?

[Angry Koala]

Originally Posted by Barney

Slightly out of context.................Reading the above it sounds like you are planning on selling your Supra Matt?

Should have been in further up so it was more in context.

Yes I am Barn as whilst there is nothing wrong with the car and I have had no issues or dramas with it, it has just become a real hassle to own a Supra.

I hate having a car that I have to think about constantly in terms of where I may be going and where I'll have to park it, whether my next door neighbours will have dinged it when I arrive home from work as I have no garage or drive and the amount of money (which I would then never recoup) that it would take to get it up to the same sort of standard as cars like Martin's, Kev's and yours. I'm always slightly embarassed turning up in it to meets because of the difference. Plus if I can't even get agreed value once I've spent that money because it's a J-Spec then I'm knackered if something happens to it.

I've never really been one for modifying cars and the nonsense with the insurance at the moment is just another reminder of why I have kept my cars standard in the past and is a pain in the arse I can do without. I think I will go the mildly quick run-around (306 GTI-6/Golf VR6) and bike (for the need for speed) route and save myself the grief.